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Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby erik.nyc » January 13th, 2008, 7:21 pm

newfD90 wrote:I've also received Kernel Panics from EyeTV. It always happens in the following situation:

1) Using digital out system sound
2) EyeTV is recording a program
3) I'm watching something else and skipping commercials

The details of the Kernel Panic shows that it happens down in the audio subsystem. Others on the Mac HTPC forum on avsforums have experienced it under the same conditions.


i've had this same problem for the past year, with Tiger and now with Leopard. it's not necessarily associated with recording a program. it has definitely happened often while skipping commercials, but can even happen doing nothing but watching a program. the only time it doesn't happen is when i switch from digital out to analog. so it's definitely related to the digital out. that said, i've never had this problem in any other program which uses the digital out (dvd player, vlc, etc...).

i would love to know that this problem is being looked at and would be happy to help in any way with whatever log files or testing that may be needed.
Last edited by Mike Evangelist on May 25th, 2008, 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: I split this into a new thread to deal specifically with the digital audio issue.
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby newfD90 » January 14th, 2008, 3:54 am

erik.nyc wrote:i would love to know that this problem is being looked at and would be happy to help in any way with whatever log files or testing that may be needed.


You and me both. This problem has been around forever and the only way to stop it is to set EyeTV to use the analog output. Unfortunately, El Gato says it's an Apple problem and I don't know what Apple says. That said, I never see these kernel crashes in the DVD player or Front Row when watching a VIDEO_TS rip. Both of which output DD5.1
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby gatonegro » January 17th, 2008, 12:43 am

Just wondering if elgato's fixed this yet or not. I'm using a Hybrid and I've had these same KP's using various versions of EyeTV 2 on both Tiger and Leopard. Consistent KP's, even after an Erase and Install of the OS, when the digital audio out output is selected in the El Gato EyeTV software.

Using the System output is less than ideal for multiple reasons. First, no multi channel surround sound. Major flaw. Second, this setting has the tendency to cause the audio and video to lose sync.

Why have the option of using the digital output if the EyeTV software constantly conflicts with the OS and causes a KP??? This is frustrating to no end. With every software update El Gate released, I had hoped they would solve this problem. So far, the software is not useable with digital audio output selected.

Anyone using the 3.0 software care to chime in? Is this problem still present? Or has the error been corrected in the new version? Of course, El Gato's response has only been "it's Apple's fault".
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby newfD90 » January 17th, 2008, 4:33 pm

gatonegro wrote:Anyone using the 3.0 software care to chime in? Is this problem still present? Or has the error been corrected in the new version? Of course, El Gato's response has only been "it's Apple's fault".


I purchased the 3.0 upgrade and re-enabled digital out last night. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not holding my breath...
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby icedtrip » January 27th, 2008, 11:11 pm

I updated to version 3 a few days ago, and the problem is still there! This is so frustrating!

Details of my setup and panic log below.

Mac Mini 1.66 Intel Core Duo
1.25 GB RAM
DVI out to a Mitsubishi HC4900 projector
1920x1080 resolution
Digital Audio out

Panic Log:
Code: Select all
Sun Jan 27 15:41:53 2008
panic(cpu 0 caller 0x001A7BED): Kernel trap at 0x00197656, type 14=page fault, registers:
CR0: 0x80010033, CR2: 0x25d8d000, CR3: 0x01054000, CR4: 0x000006e0
EAX: 0x3fe82d0c, EBX: 0x25d8b010, ECX: 0x00000095, EDX: 0x00002244
CR2: 0x25d8d000, EBP: 0x25fe7cd8, ESI: 0x25d8d000, EDI: 0x3fe84cfc
EFL: 0x00010202, EIP: 0x00197656, CS:  0x00000008, DS:  0x00190010
Error code: 0x00000000

Backtrace, Format - Frame : Return Address (4 potential args on stack)
0x25fe7ae8 : 0x12b0e1 (0x455670 0x25fe7b1c 0x133238 0x0)
0x25fe7b38 : 0x1a7bed (0x45ea20 0x197656 0xe 0x45e1d4)
0x25fe7c18 : 0x19e517 (0x25fe7c2c 0x25fe7cd8 0x197656 0xe)
0x25fe7c24 : 0x197656 (0xe 0x48 0x10 0x25fe0010)
0x25fe7cd8 : 0xb5e82a (0x38e2c00 0x25d8b010 0x3fe72000 0x4343)
0x25fe7d28 : 0xb5e66e (0x390a500 0x4343 0x891 0x1361b0)
0x25fe7d68 : 0xb5e46d (0x390a500 0x18d5b65b 0x25fe7dd8 0x19d0ea)
0x25fe7de8 : 0xb59afc (0x390a500 0x7be1e88 0x45d4 0x0)
0x25fe7e68 : 0xb59196 (0x5812000 0x45d4 0x0 0x37a0c00)
0x25fe7ea8 : 0x439aa4 (0x5812000 0x45d4 0x0 0x0)
0x25fe7f08 : 0x196afc (0x25fe7f44 0x0 0x0 0x0)
0x25fe7fc8 : 0x19eb34 (0x80f597c 0x1 0x1a10b5 0x3f3cf20)
No mapping exists for frame pointer
Backtrace terminated-invalid frame pointer 0xb0d97b58
      Kernel loadable modules in backtrace (with dependencies):
         com.apple.iokit.IOAudioFamily(1.6.4b7)@0xb4f000->0xb65fff
            dependency: com.apple.kext.OSvKernDSPLib(1.1)@0xb4c000

BSD process name corresponding to current thread: EyeTV

Mac OS version:
9B18

Kernel version:
Darwin Kernel Version 9.1.0: Wed Oct 31 17:46:22 PDT 2007; root:xnu-1228.0.2~1/RELEASE_I386
System model name: Macmini1,1 (Mac-F4208EC8)
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby newfD90 » January 28th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Yup, still there. I just got it the other day. :evil:
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby icedtrip » January 29th, 2008, 5:59 pm

OK, ElGato, you can do better than this!
This is my last post through my big 3 issues with EyeTV for right now.

I have had several more KP since I posted the other day due to this stupid digital audio issue. I have nothing new to add as far as crash logs are concerned, since they all point to the same exact thing every time, but I do have a couple items to mention that I just don't get.

So, ElGato insists that this is an Apple issue since they do not handle anything at the kernel level. OK, I can somewhat buy this, but only somewhat. Here is why.

All the following programs use digital audio and I have never had a single kernel panic using any of them.

DVD Player.app
Quicktime.app
iTunes.app (yes, iTunes can handle multi channel audio)
VLC
MPlayer
NicePlayer

Yes, the first three are Apple products and all use the same set of codecs for the most part, and yes NicePlayer uses Quicktime and thus whatever Quicktime is capable of; however, the other 2 players use there are own codecs from what I can tell.

Now I am not sure what EyeTV does for digital audio playback. I am not sure if they use their own codecs or use whatever Apple products use, but the above 6 apps are proof that digital audio can happen without kernel panics.

I would just like to understand how this is an Apple problem. Give me details so that I can report the proper problem to Apple. All I can do now is send crash reports, but all of these crash reports mention EyeTV, so who's to say Apple won't simply point fingers back to ElGato.
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby RobJo » February 14th, 2008, 9:22 pm

hi

After weeks of frustration things seem to look better with OSX10.5.2
I now have the eyetv hooked on as I always used to and no crashes in 3 days...

Anyone else have news on this?
Hope it stays working.
cheers
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby chefk » February 18th, 2008, 3:27 pm

The details of the Kernel Panic shows that it happens down in the audio subsystem. Others on the Mac HTPC forum on avsforums have experienced it under the same conditions.


We have, and "com.apple.iokit.IOAudioFamily" is always in the panic logs.

Just wondering if elgato's fixed this yet or not.


They haven't. Since installing Leopard and EyeTV3, and now that I'm watching and recording more network high def QAM, I get them about 10-20% of the time I "interact" with my EyeTV 500s. That means when watching 1 out of every 5 or 10 recordings.

This problem has been around forever


Well, maybe not forever but at least 2 years.

it's not necessarily associated with recording a program. it has definitely happened often while skipping commercials, but can even happen doing nothing but watching a program.


Right, when we first started tracking this in our little Mac home theater group at AVS, I, too, thought it was brought on by using the Apple remote, fast forward scanning, and also when watching one program while recording one or two others. When I was naive about this, I used to think that we could narrow down what sequence(s) causes the panic--and then simply avoid that behavior. But the first time you get the kernel panic when merely watching a recorded program you realize the issue isn't that simple.

Unfortunately, El Gato says it's an Apple problem


Do they still? If participation on this thread, or over at AVS, is any indication, it seems that the "digital audio kernel panic" is an issue El Gato would prefer just goes away, i.e. that its users just stop documenting and just stop complaining about. I've had it for so long I know I feel beaten down by it--frankly it's the only issue where I feel let down by El Gato, and otherwise I'm an enthusiastic supporter. At one time I think there was a FAQ about it on the El Gato support site, with the "helpful" suggestion just not to use digital audio out, but last I looked I couldn't find it.

Does anyone have the link to where this is addressed publicly on the El Gato support site?

So, my thoughts echo many of those already expressed:

1) It's frustrating for this to have lingered, unresolved, for so long; and
2) it's disappointing that this issue isn't explained and confronted more openly by El Gato; and
3) there are a couple of AVS users who report that they've NEVER had a single digital audio kernel panic, which keeps a glimmer of hope alive.

I just got a 250+ and next on my list is to hook that up to see if there's any difference between firewire and USB and this kernel panic. The other approach I've been meaning to try is playing back all EyeTV recordings in VLC--to see if that makes a difference w/r/t the digital audio panic. I've done it for the odd test, but never on a sustained basis.

Suspecting bad RAM, as Mike did above, does nothing but deflect a serious ongoing problem for those of us who already are advanced users.
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Re: Kernal Crashes in Leopard with EyeTV 2.5.1

Postby newfD90 » February 18th, 2008, 4:28 pm

chefk wrote:I just got a 250+ and next on my list is to hook that up to see if there's any difference between firewire and USB and this kernel panic.


Probably won't make a difference. I get them with my HDHR, which is just a ethernet connection.

With the latest update to 10.5.2, I've re-enabled the digital audio out. Haven't had a panic yet, but there hasn't been much recording or watching going on either. I've got my fingers crossed...
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Help us track this down

Postby Mike Evangelist » February 18th, 2008, 9:00 pm

We are aware that some users are experiencing kernel panics when using EyeTV and digital audio outputs. We believe it's primarily an OS problem but Apple will not be able to help solve this until we can give them specific detailed bug reports.

This has been very difficult because we have never been able to reproduce this behavior in-house; and believe me, we have tried. So we need your help.

• If you are experiencing kernel panics when using digital audio, we'd like to get your Apple System Profiler report, as well as the Console.log and System.log files from the time just leading up to the kernel panic. You can email the information to me at mike@elgato.com.

• It would also be helpful for you to log the panic and report it to Apple. As more users report the issue to Apple, the more likely it is that they'll do something about it. Here's an Apple tech note that tells how to log a kernel panic: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106228

Thanks.

Mike
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby Clayton Hynfield » February 19th, 2008, 5:06 am

Folks, is there any reason at all not to configure system-wide audio output to use the digital audio out, and then to configure EyeTV to use system audio, as I described in a similar thread several weeks ago? I was to the point of getting several kernel panics a day (and yes, I reported as many as I ran into, although I'm certain my wife and kids didn't) before this configuration, but I haven't panicked once since. My audio receiver claims to be decoding Dolby Digital 5.1 when I play, say, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles in EyeTV.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby chefk » February 19th, 2008, 4:02 pm

Folks, is there any reason at all not to configure system-wide audio output to use the digital audio out, and then to configure EyeTV to use system audio, as I described in a similar thread several weeks ago?


Yes, there are several reasons not to: DD 5.1 audio is not passed to an AVR when EyeTV audio is set to "system sound output." For some users and for certain content, frankly, system sound out is perfectly fine. For others, who have invested in a good home theater, and for certain content designed to take advantage of it, DD 5.1 can make a dramatic difference. Even with regular sit-com or talk-show type programming, there can be audio sync issues as well when choosing "system sound" versus digital, i.e. sound slightly out of sync with the video. I read that thread you linked to, Clayton, and my initial sense was there's a disconnect between what you think you're experiencing and what you're actually experiencing.

My audio receiver claims to be decoding Dolby Digital 5.1 when I play, say, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles in EyeTV.


Are you sure you're not listening to "pretend" Dolby Pro Logic II surround instead? Because what happens with most Macs and most AVRs when you have EyeTV audio output set to "system sound," is that the Sarah Conner Chronicles DD 5.1 audio track would be passed and received as PCM by your AVR, it's not detected and locked onto as DD 5.1, and that PCM in turn is processed (matrixed) via Dolby Pro Logic II on the fly and fed out to your surround sound speakers. Basically, your AVR uses Dolby Pro Logic to make an educated guess what should go where so you hear something out of all your speakers. That's very different than the AC-3/DD 5.1 audio being passed through to your AVR untouched, which is what that show's director and sound engineers intended.

Test this yourself with something like Sarah Conner Chronicles playing back--just toggle back and forth between "system sound" and "digital out" in the EyeTV Audio drop down menu during playback--and if your Mac and AVR are working properly--what should happen is your AVR should switch on and off the true DD 5.1--you should be able to hear the difference, and see different indicators and settings light up on your AVR as you "lock" onto the DD 5.1 and switch off.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby Ted » February 20th, 2008, 7:21 pm

erik.nyc wrote:i've had this same problem for the past year, with Tiger and now with Leopard. it's not necessarily associated with recording a program. it has definitely happened often while skipping commercials, but can even happen doing nothing but watching a program. the only time it doesn't happen is when i switch from digital out to analog. so it's definitely related to the digital out. that said, i've never had this problem in any other program which uses the digital out (dvd player, vlc, etc...).

Yes, same here -- "digital out" causes the problem vs. "system sound" which doesn't (digital cable in both cases).

Another bug: lip sync issues when using "system sound" is one reason many of us keep using "digital out" despite the crashes.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby ogod » March 7th, 2008, 11:47 pm

One thing I noticed: When using digital output other sounds are disabled, so only one piece of software has control of the speakers at a time. Every time I have seen the kernel panic occur it has been when something else has been trying to generate a sound.

A specific instance has been when someone has tried to phone me. I am using Bluephone Elite 2, which issues and alert when there are incoming calls. It opens a foreground window as well.

I have never seen another application cause a kernel panic in quite this way. While it is a low level problem, I still think el Gato are doing something wrong. I suspect that it has something to do with how they take control of the digital audio. Perhaps they have to specifically disable other sounds? Even if it is so, it is still an issue apple should deal with, as no failure should cause a kernel panic.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby newfD90 » March 8th, 2008, 12:07 am

Still happening with 10.5.2. I was recording two HD programs and watching another. The irony of the situation is that I went to EyeTV's preferences to switch it to System Output so that I wouldn't get a crash. It halted the instant I switched from Digital Out to System Out. :roll:

Upon rebooting, EyeTV did not continue recording the programs that it was recording before the crash. If we're going to have to live with Digital Audio crashes, that should be fixed.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby landog » March 10th, 2008, 4:57 am

Im so pleased to have found this thread.

Ive reinstalled leopard twice thinking that it was me.

Same issue here

Mini C2Duo
Leopard 10.5.2
Kernel panics

Ive just reinstalled again over the weekend, ill grab the next panic log when it happens and send to you mike

Rgds
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby markus.barta » March 21st, 2008, 11:05 am

Hi all!

I've got the same issue :-(

MacMini CD 1,66GHz
Leopard 10.5.2
EyeTV 3.0.1

I've got at least 2 crashes (CP) per day and insist on elgato solving the issue - as it persists for >2 years now - from what I read here.

I suggest we put some pressure on elgato and team up to get a contact person (mail), that's not a guy who refuses to help and blames Apple...

What do you think?

Regards,
Markus
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby markus.barta » March 21st, 2008, 11:22 am

I just raised this ticket. Lets see what happens... :|


___________________________________________________________________________
As discussed by many people already in the forum (viewtopic.php?f=86&t=1579&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a) using eyetv software (>2.5 up to latest 3.0.1) and using digital audio output causes kernel panics (system crash).

We all refuse to accept that it is an "Apple" issue, that causes the problem because all other programs do NOT cause this problem if sound is played via digital out (e.g. VLC, QT, DVD-Player...).

I bought the MacMini AND eyetv exactly for this purpose - to watch a movie and output sound to my receiver and have DD or DS for my 5.1 set, so this is a real show-stopper!

I hereby request that you accept and process this ticket ASAP, as already far too many customers feel unhappy about this issue, that seems to exist for over 2 years now.

Kind regards,
Markus Barta

PS: I might add, that I recommended your software to all my friends and family for quite some time now! I will definitely stop doing that if this issue persists and you do not fix this bug soon.
___________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby sfatula » March 26th, 2008, 7:11 pm

So, I see a lot of people wanting it fixed, did anyone go through the steps Mike asked for and took the time to send him the logs? Any updates?

I will gladly do this if no one has taken that time.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby Mike Evangelist » March 26th, 2008, 7:59 pm

Steve,

We'd greatly appreciate it if you could send your info.

PS
We have only gotten one response so far to our plea for details; even after posting the request on very busy AVSforums (where supposedly 'many' people were reporting the problem.)
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby newfD90 » March 26th, 2008, 8:30 pm

Mike Evangelist wrote:We have only gotten one response so far to our plea for details; even after posting the request on very busy AVSforums (where supposedly 'many' people were reporting the problem.)


Probably what you're running into is it's a very nasty crash that takes the system down hard (usually right in the middle of a recording that you will lose). Once people go to System Sound Output to avoid it, they're not likely to want to experience it again. I know that describes me. However, I will re-enable the Digital Output and email the requested docs (I've always submitted the panic log to Apple).
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby erik.nyc » March 27th, 2008, 6:41 pm

Yes, newf is right.. you probably haven't gotten many crash logs since most users would rather not have to crash their computers on purpose. I finally got a chance to let my computer crash.. only took 10 minutes of using EyeTV with the digital out enabled. I would like to plead with everyone who has the same problem.. please, let your computers crash and send Mike your information! I truly believe, with enough data Elgato can fix this or get Apple to fix it.

I'd also like to thank Mike for stickying this post and making this problem a priority. It's been a very long time, but I'm happy to see this problem isn't being swept under the rug and ignored.
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Re: Kernel Panics when using digital audio

Postby patrick » March 31st, 2008, 9:35 pm

Digital Out problems here too (v3.0.1).
As requested, have sent Panic log and System Configuration to Mike.
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